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Time/Score-Attacking
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RE: Time/Score-Attacking
ajazz > 07-31-2024, 05:24 PM
@ if i was smart i would have thought to look up maps like you. i haven't beaten advance 2 or 3 ever, it's a huge hole in my sonic cred. i might join you in the trenches.
until then here's this (good by my standards, totally unremarkable by real speedrunners) run of green hill act 1 (mania):
in casual conversations about sonic level design we generally assume the top route is the fastest. in reality, the top route has the most rewards / convenience and whatnot, but this is a reminder that in practice the fastest runs will zig-zag between the routes.
i was having a lot of trouble with this one because i assumed top was fastest, but failed to realize you actually need to go down in order to exit the level. once i found those speed shoes down there i saw the light -
RE: Time/Score-Attacking
hooligan > 07-31-2024, 06:12 PM
(07-31-2024, 05:24 PM)ajazz Wrote: until then here's this (good by my standards, totally unremarkable by real speedrunners) run of green hill act 1 (mania):
[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjGKgddy9Xc]
in casual conversations about sonic level design we generally assume the top route is the fastest. in reality, the top route has the most rewards / convenience and whatnot, but this is a reminder that in practice the fastest runs will zig-zag between the routes.
i was having a lot of trouble with this one because i assumed top was fastest, but failed to realize you actually need to go down in order to exit the level. once i found those speed shoes down there i saw the light
I totally understand the feeling of assuming the top is the fastest route as well, bcuz we've been told "it's a reward for playing well" but that doesn't mean it's the quickest! still, this was a great watch and I was so scared when you spindashed and passed all the spikes that area of green hill always gives me so much anxiety, haha
thankfully we're not here to compare ourselves to speedrunners, just here to have fun and share accomplishments
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RE: Time/Score-Attacking
ajazz > 08-01-2024, 07:32 AM
(07-31-2024, 06:12 PM)hooligan Wrote: I totally understand the feeling of assuming the top is the fastest route as well, bcuz we've been told "it's a reward for playing well" but that doesn't mean it's the quickest! still, this was a great watch and I was so scared when you spindashed and passed all the spikes that area of green hill always gives me so much anxiety, haha
agreed on all counts
thankfully we're not here to compare ourselves to speedrunners, just here to have fun and share accomplishments
i actually beat my previous time this morning by five whole seconds - i actually executed on the final jump this time. i still could improve a ton of stuff but think i'm finally satisfied enough to move onto act 2
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RE: Time/Score-Attacking
Tominique > 08-01-2024, 07:05 PM
(07-31-2024, 05:24 PM)ajazz Wrote: @ if i was smart i would have thought to look up maps like you. i haven't beaten advance 2 or 3 ever, it's a huge hole in my sonic cred. i might join you in the trenches.
casual conversations about sonic level design we generally assume the top route is the fastest. in reality, the top route has the most rewards / convenience and whatnot, but this is a reminder that in practice the fastest runs will zig-zag between the routes.
i was having a lot of trouble with this one because i assumed top was fastest, but failed to realize you actually need to go down in order to exit the level. once i found those speed shoes down there i saw the light
Ayyyyy, happy to have you in the trenches, mate!
And yeah, that's a good point. I feel prioritizing top paths is more a useful for improving at a Sonic game in general before you get to Time-Attacking it. Either that or Score-Attacking, if you're into that... Which I certainly am...
Anyways, heck yeah, maps save a lot of unnecessary time for routing!
I'll say, it's super nostalgic for me seeing a classic Sonic speedrun, as Sonic 1 is how I found out about such a thing as "speedrunning" and the strats that come with it.
![[Image: TPMrvt5.png]](https://i.imgur.com/TPMrvt5.png)
I remember specifically the trick where you jump after you go through these two S tunnels in Green Hill Zone act 1, so you skip doing the ramp and go through the lower path much like how it's done in the Mania version of the level. Stuff like that and jumping during loops to shave off just a few miliseconds blew my mind as a little Tomi, and are probably what made me fall in love with Time-Attacking so much.
It's all very SWAG, if you will.
(08-01-2024, 07:32 AM)ajazz Wrote: i actually beat my previous time this morning by five whole seconds - i actually executed on the final jump this time. i still could improve a ton of stuff but think i'm finally satisfied enough to move onto act 2
[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XUPifby...e=youtu.be]
This is such a fun watch, by the way. I always think of near flawless runs like this as the "canon" way Sonic or whatever character has gone through the level. That enhances the TA experience a lot of me. Getting through as fast as possible is just as Sonic himself would do it!
Anyhow, best of luck in your next runs! Just can't get enough of quality Time-Attacking! -
RE: Time/Score-Attacking
Tominique > 08-03-2024, 07:28 AM
Y'know, I found myself thinking; how would we do Time-Attacking for the Genesis games?
We're not exactly being competitive here, but it's nice to have an even playing field so we could at least compare times, and I found myself in a bit of a pickle when it came to the Genesis games. What version do we use and with what settings?
The original games don't give us proper Time-Attack modes built into them, so we have to look at remasters.
I'll just go ahead and say, I don't have Sonic Origins as of now. Prices for games get bumped up significantly where I'm from so I'd have to wait for a pretty good deal or at the very least be able to spare the funds for that. So at the very least that narrows our options down to just the fan remasters.
You know the ones, Sonic 1 Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute and Sonic 3 AIR. Built-in Time-Attacks that are very well implemented. So what's the problem?
Each remaster gives you a ton of options on modifying the game. Sonic 1 Forever for example lets you turn off speed caps, add spindashing, dropdash, all good stuff for playing to your liking, and those are options in all the remasters. But the problem comes when establishing a "rule-set" basically.
I myself play Sonic 1 a lot, and I prefer to have everything set so that it plays exactly like the original, so no spindashing, there's the speed caps, basically I'm a purist, most I'll do is widescreen. But I also acknowledge the extra features make for a richer Time-Attacking experience with the expanded moveset and added characters and whatnot.
Despite my preferences, I say add all the extra features for the expanded movesets and characters. Either that or we don't care about that at all and do what we want, which is in the spirit of this thread, I suppose. I just wanna get some more thoughts on this to avoid any confusion down the line. -
RE: Time/Score-Attacking
hooligan > 08-03-2024, 11:52 AM
(08-03-2024, 07:28 AM)Tominique Wrote: I'll just go ahead and say, I don't have Sonic Origins as of now. Prices for games get bumped up significantly where I'm from so I'd have to wait for a pretty good deal or at the very least be able to spare the funds for that. So at the very least that narrows our options down to just the fan remasters.
You know the ones, Sonic 1 Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute and Sonic 3 AIR. Built-in Time-Attacks that are very well implemented. So what's the problem?
Each remaster gives you a ton of options on modifying the game. Sonic 1 Forever for example lets you turn off speed caps, add spindashing, dropdash, all good stuff for playing to your liking, and those are options in all the remasters. But the problem comes when establishing a "rule-set" basically.
I myself play Sonic 1 a lot, and I prefer to have everything set so that it plays exactly like the original, so no spindashing, there's the speed caps, basically I'm a purist, most I'll do is widescreen. But I also acknowledge the extra features make for a richer Time-Attacking experience with the expanded moveset and added characters and whatnot.
Despite my preferences, I say add all the extra features for the expanded movesets and characters. Either that or we don't care about that at all and do what we want, which is in the spirit of this thread, I suppose. I just wanna get some more thoughts on this to avoid any confusion down the line.
(replying on mobile, sorry abt any formatting issues)
I also don't have Origins, as someone who has the previous accessible versions of the Genesis Trilogy and Sonic CD through steam I saw no reason to buy it again. I also have the same problem of prices of games being on the expensive side, any switch game is easily $100 here after taxes.
But I like the idea of trying out the fan remasters and doing time attack that way, there's nothing wrong w/ friendly competition, I find it brings the best out of ppl when they go against each other and form the "best route", kinda like what we were doing w/ Sonic Heroes together. And similar to Riders I would also like an agreed upon rule set, for Sonic 1 I wouldn't want a spin dash either personally, I like Sonic 1 the way it is without any added features or moves from previous games but as long as a person specifies whether or not they're adding movesets or mods I think it should be okay, again we're all here to have fun, just like how in Riders I prefer the Cover-P bike for power types over their original gears
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RE: Time/Score-Attacking
Tominique > 08-03-2024, 02:27 PM
(08-03-2024, 11:52 AM)hooligan Wrote: I would also like an agreed upon rule set, for Sonic 1 I wouldn't want a spin dash either personally, I like Sonic 1 the way it is without any added features or moves from previous games
but as long as a person specifies whether or not they're adding movesets or mods I think it should be okay, again we're all here to have fun, just like how in Riders I prefer the Cover-P bike for power types over their original gears
Fair it is, I think that's a good rule set to settle on. Gameplay settings are assumed left as is in the original game unless state otherwise.
Hm, at this point I gotta get these game-specific rules up somewhere for convenience.
Now, I've asked that to begin with since I've got my eyes on running Sonic 2 recently, which honestly, has been humbling me on my preconceived notions on how good I am at Sonic games in general. I mean, wow, the art of Boost™️ has really spoiled me.
That isn't to say games like Rush or Generations are inferior because of their more streamlined approach to Time-Attacking, I would never even imply that. I've just been feeling the Genesis trilogy's (pentalogy?) bigger emphasis on the environment for your speed, which has me growing a greater respect for them, I can't stress enough just how cleverly designed Sonic has been since his inception, though I'm getting a bit off topic with that. Simply put, it's friggin' hard but I love it!
Another reason why specifically Sonic 2 is that Metropolis Zone has scarred me so much that I wish to master it before anything else just for the sake of having the last laugh. Spite is a potent fuel! -
RE: Time/Score-Attacking
Tominique > 08-08-2024, 04:52 PM
At least Sonic 2 levels are usually short. Man, this took me a hot minute to get satisfying results.
These older games are very much a unique Time-Attack experience. Can't quite put my finger on it, it's not as stylish as say Rush or Advance 2, but there's this feeling of greater mastery due to their simpler nature that can make the slightest of movements count.
Really, it's quite precise.
![[Image: zpqqt3v.png]](https://i.imgur.com/zpqqt3v.png)
The run has this one jump I just could not get consistently until I realized the uneven terrain isn't just there for show and I could use a small little slope to easily cross the gap as long as I time it, and as soon as I got that I felt the biggest mind blow of my life.
I'm... absolutely sure given how this is a 30 year-old game that stuff like this is common knowledge for the pros out there, but I can't stress enough how discoveries like this is are what I find so fun about Sonic games. -
RE: Time/Score-Attacking
ajazz > 08-09-2024, 08:27 AM
(08-01-2024, 07:05 PM)Tominique Wrote: This is such a fun watch, by the way. I always think of near flawless runs like this as the "canon" way Sonic or whatever character has gone through the level. That enhances the TA experience a lot of me. Getting through as fast as possible is just as Sonic himself would do it!
Anyhow, best of luck in your next runs! Just can't get enough of quality Time-Attacking!
funny you bring up the "canon" thing because i watched a video last night that makes exactly that point about how sonic (and bayonetta and dante, etc) approach making the gameplay feel like "canon" vs how games like mario do it:
thanks for the good luck on the runs! personally, i'm a sucker for the drop dash and rarely play the older games without it now, but i'm more than willing to play them the old-fashioned way in this thread for the sake of consistency -
RE: Time/Score-Attacking
Tominique > 08-09-2024, 12:19 PM
(08-09-2024, 08:27 AM)ajazz Wrote: funny you bring up the "canon" thing because i watched a video last night that makes exactly that point about how sonic (and bayonetta and dante, etc) approach making the gameplay feel like "canon" vs how games like mario do it:
[Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdV7OI9DmdU]
thanks for the good luck on the runs! personally, i'm a sucker for the drop dash and rarely play the older games without it now, but i'm more than willing to play them the old-fashioned way in this thread for the sake of consistency
Oh, I've already watched that video myself and I love it, it finally put it into words something I've noticed in certain games for a good while. It's a part of gaming that isn't as talked about as it should.
And about the gameplay additions, it's absolutely fine if you wanna add in the Drop Dash and such to your runs on the classic games, so long as you specify what alterations you've set in the post.
