- =SB= Sonic Blast Community Forum
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- ~Fortress Base Zone~
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- Act III: Feedback Harbor
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- What Constitutes "Substantive Discussion"
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| What Constitutes "Substantive Discussion"; A disscussion about discussion in the Cottage. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 23 2014, 04:31 AM (759 Views) | |
| Breakfast Princess | Jan 24 2014, 07:37 PM Post #16 |
The most important meal of the day
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I remember something that Metallix said awhile ago. I'm not gonna be bothered to look for the specific thread but it was one sorta like this one where the Shack was being debated, activity flow was being debated. Someone or some people were claiming that there isn't much to talk about in regards to Sonic because Sega this and this and that. And Metallix listed off allll the things we could talk about in regards to Sonic that didn't even have topics yet. Such as theories, and some other cool stuff. And I think Blaire was like "Yeah that sounds like a good idea!" And a couple topics that he suggested popped up, a little bit of discussion flared, then died just as quickly. My point is, I think if we think outside the box again, it can be done. If I can find the thread I'm talking about, I will cite it. And it's not just Sonic-related topics that need attention outside of the Shack. People here love their games and fandoms. There are plenty of topics for those too. And I mentioned earlier the "What Are You Watching/Reading/Listening To" topics where people pop their heads in, drop their post, then leave and there really isn't much discussion involved in any of them. Go look for yourself if you don't know what I mean. But if people made it a habit to reply to at least one other person's show/book/music interest when they pop in to post their own, discussion might just get flowing. It'll probably be choppy and awkward at first but you never know. Your new favorite show or book could be in there but you wouldn't know because your post as well as the three above and below it consisted of "Right now I'm watching Game of Thrones." And that's it. (Yes, I am guilty of this... I'll try to take my own suggestion in the future.) Also, RabidChoco, what you are saying about "most of what I -do- like is stuff nobody's heard about anyways, so making a topic about my own likes seems rather futile, unless I probe interest via the Shack/Cottage/WHATEVER. And by then it's mutated into a conversation or just completely ignored." I get that. I think I kindaaa touched on it a little bit earlier but maybe not or maybe not clearly. I agree it is a reality in the Shack. Not sure if it's a huge problem though. What I said in my first post in this topic is something along the lines of "The Shack is basically where people come in and talk about something that they are interested in or something that happened to them personally." I agree, not much can be made out of this, topic- or conversation-wise. Like I said, not sure if that's a problem. That's what the Shack is for, right? No one is faulting you, or any posts in the Shack like this. Or at least, they shouldn't be... Like I said I thought that was what the Shack was for. Sort of an IM/chat box/social media type thing. Oh and if you don't like the popular stuff, you can always contribute to the conversation by saying why! There's something for everybody. And RPs tend to fluctuate a lot, have you noticed? At least in my time, you have been here longer than me. Sometimes they are really busy, but sometimes like lately they just slow to a halt. I know a lot of really active RPers are hardly around anymore, like L. Then the most recent tournament sucked up most if not all of the serious and active RPers. But the RP Garden was never an area of the forum that needed life support, and I doubt it will in the future. Personal opinion/observation though. Edited by Breakfast Princess, Jan 24 2014, 07:38 PM.
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Neo Metallix
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Jan 24 2014, 09:37 PM Post #17 |
~Doomsday Overlord~
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Wow.... This has turned into some real discussion. I'd just like to point out that it's not a cottage thing it's a forum thing really. I think we need to come together and work to bring this place back up. It's a group effort. When I started this place it was really only me and I'd just go posting tons of topics despite not many people here just so people could have something to discuss. It's not hard and if no one posts in the topic then big deal, at least you tried! |
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Kitm
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Jan 24 2014, 09:50 PM Post #18 |
Lava Reef Act 1
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As hypocritical as it is to say, I feel like KittyCakes has a point. I'll willingly admit that I've not been doing my part as a moderator or as a member. There was an example provided by her about the book I mentioned, and she's right, I should have placed it in the appropriate section. This forum spans far more than a single topic, and it's long overdue that it cease being the proverbial focal point of discussion. Like Cy said, we really need to crack down and band together and do our jobs right, all of us. This forum has been around for a while, and that says something. After being here so long, although not really being a pillar of the community or even a substantive contributor, I'd still be sad to see it go. And if conversation can't be stimulated forum-wide, that very well may be a possibility. Every brick helps build the wall, and this place has pretty much something for everyone. Despite this being a Sonic forum, it is pretty versatile. So come on guys, let's do our part in keeping this place a thriving community. |
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| Ludichaos | Jan 24 2014, 11:53 PM Post #19 |
[Outrealm Vagabond]
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Annnnd some people completely missed the point I was trying to make. I'm not questioning the rule, I'm questioning the implementation at times. I fully understand the reasoning behind its existence and I'm not suggesting it should be altered in any way. I am suggesting that being too strict isn't wise. It can drive members away. Did you even read the guidelines I use? Did you? These aren't concrete and are all circumstantial. I follow them so I don't just throw every linked pair of comments on a subject off into its own topic. That would clutter up the forum like that. - 6 post buffer minimum is assuming there are only two participants in a conversation. Usually because most conversations of this nature go like this: Member A: "Comment on subject." Member B: "Question about that subject." Member A: "Answer to Question." Member B: "I see." The two posts after are in the event of a follow up question. After that, it's usually dropped. But from what I can tell you'd prefer people to make a topic, make a few short posts about it and then leave it to die? Well okay. Sounds reasonable. - 4 participants and above talking about the one thing is something I consider for splitting it into its own topic earlier than the 6 post buffer. If there's enough people talking about it then it isn't a wasted topic and is more likely to produce more discussion. - Post quality is VERY important when it comes to a worthy discussion. If they're not actually discussing something and just making small comments about it then it's not really a discussion, is it? It's something small, contained, that won't produce anything of worth after that. So why then should it be its own topic? If the views in the comments are opposing, that also means there's a good chance some discussion will come out of it since each side will be trying to persuade the other (hell, it worked here, didn't it). These aren't here to "undermine his rules". They're here to make sure the rule doesn't get out of hand/is abused. I'm not even saying they need to be followed. Just that I personally feel this is how moderators should approach determining what is and isn't topic worthy. It's easier to make a point when people understand your way of thinking. I'm not disrespecting him. He's the only one who approaches the problem in this way, hence why he's been singled out. If it was done by multiple people I'd be calling them out too. I don't believe that because I'm a Moderator I should just blindly follow the system when I feel there's a problem with it. I've done this in the hopes of creating a more enjoyable and friendly community for everyone. And I would have called him out if I was just a regular member too. On a personal note: I don't care for your tone. At all. Not just in this post but a few others too. Reel it in, it's starting to feel like a personal attack. Admittedly I could have done this via PMs or even in the Staff section, but since this was an issue that also effects regular members, I thought it was a good idea to open up the discussion to them as well. Again, not calling out his rules but the way he chooses to implement them. If I can't call a superior out on something that I feel is wrong, how the hell are we ever supposed to get a dialogue going about anything? Nobody enjoys living in a dictatorship. (Not to say it currently is, but we've had cries of it before. Something to be wary of.) And here's the crux of the matter. I've tried starting topics about things I want to talk about. And what happens to most of them? They die. Without so much as a single post a lot of the time. Is it any wonder I mostly stick to the Chat Cottage nowadays? There's little point starting up a new topic if there's no interest. Otherwise you're just cluttering up the boards. I'm not saying you should never make a new topic, but I personally have a pretty good idea of what will and won't be talked about based on member habits. Everyone is quick to name the Shack/Cottage as a scapegoat, but I'm here to tell you one thing: Diverting attention away from it won't magically fix all our problems. Cy brought up what needs to be done, and without anyone doing it (cause really, I don't see many of the anti-Cottage people doing anything about it besides moan when this subject comes up either) it's a moot point. You can remove the chit chat area if you want but activity will not suddenly boom outside just because of that. Remember this before pointing fingers. Finally: I need to clarify that I mean no disrespect to Metallix. There is no malice in my statements nor my arguments, nor is this a personal attack on him. I merely question his methods in regard to this one little thing. Apologies if you feel that way but it's just not the case. Open dialogues are one of the best ways to resolve a problem, or at the very least take a few steps towards fixing it. |
| 【One third of Sonic Blast's Legendary Australian Trio. The last remaining member 】 | |
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| Lord Pianta | Jan 25 2014, 05:36 AM Post #20 |
Il Piantissimo
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Wow this has really blown out of porportion. There really was no need to bash someone for their opinion. If that is the case then I see why people steer away from discussion. We keep saying "we need to come together and make this place lively again" but I never see suggestions how. If you really want to keep this forum alive next to the moderators who I believe try their best, then give us some suggestions at least. You can't expect everything just to work out just because you want to. Make people post topics hasn't really helped before. Because basically the only ones who've tried to gain activity here are the ones who helped out with the Valentine's Exchange from last year and the Game Tournament (probably RP Tournament too, I dunno). It was easy to say the Shack was the reason the activity was low because it was the only place to have activity. Now even that's gone, you need to think of other options. I really think you should just leave the Shack alone and think of other stuff to help the forum improve. It's not about posting your stuff in the right topic because does that really matter anyway when it comes down to it? I guess we all see the same format happening in the Shack. Conversation got stale and boring because there's rules. We have to watch what we say, and that's what scares people away. I don't see any other reason for that. Even regulars left since we enforced the rules on them. People who bashed the Shack in the past got what they wanted. It's okay to be strict but be wary of the consequences.
There's no denying it anymore. |
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| Breakfast Princess | Jan 25 2014, 09:10 AM Post #21 |
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The most important meal of the day
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I don't think it's hypocritical of you to say that. You took my example (which I appreciate you letting me provide by the way, I hope it didn't feel like I was personally calling you out because I wasn't trying to. It had just happened today so I figured anybody could go reference it quickly if they wanted to), and you realized that you're not perfect and you see the suggestions made and are willing to make your own to better the forum. I think you're a good Mod simply for being willing to say "I messed up. But I am ready to kick it up a notch and try to do better". Blaire has that attitude as well, which I can respect and admire from both of you. I think that is far better than just saying "Well nobody else ever does anything so..." So thank you, both of you guys, for taking it seriously and giving your written word that you will start kicking it into gear. I look forward to both your leadership on the matter. Also, Ktim, thank you, I appreciate it.
There was no bashing being done on my part. Ludi should know what it means to try and be dramatic and grandstand in a public forum, someone is going to call him out. He brought it on himself. If anyone who claims that I was "bashing" had actually read all of my posts, they would find that I suggested to Ludi and Ktim that instead of ganging up on Metallix in person like they did in the Shack, they could pm him about the issue or use some other means of communication. Ludi could've brought the problem to its own topic, without naming any specific names or making it obvious who he was talking about, because that right there was a jerk thing to do and was completely unnecessary. He could've asked public opinion on the matter and left it at that. But he had to be all specific about it, which I chose to bash him for, rightfully so. So Ludi said...
But then Metallix said...
And everyone here has either been talking about the Cottage or the forum. So uhm, Ludi... Who are those "some people" that completely missed the point? I think you completely missed the point, either that or you delivered it wrong. If all anyone did was provide public feedback like you were fishing for, then don't be mad when they don't respond exactly how you'd like. Nobody missed the point, you just don't like what it turned into. Try again.
Actually yes. I did. Hence why I pointed them out specifically and went into detail as to why they are ridiculous.
Shoulda been more specific. And I'll say they aren't concrete, because they aren't rules. Kinda goes without saying. The sheer fact that you have to elaborate on your own personal guidelines and stretch it out into paragraphs and paragraphs just says that there's something wrong. You don't have to explain it to me, I got it the first time, although I appreciate you trying. I say trying because I don't really see them any differently than I saw them when I first read them. It just seems like you've complicated things by not trying to complicate them. Do the other mods follow your Cottage guidelines? Have you shared them with them? If not, they probably have their own guidelines? (Or you know... They don't over analyze a simple rule to the point of composing their own 10 Commandments about it but hey that's just my guess). Let's just say that every mod has their own specific set of rules for the Cottage or anywhere really, and they enforce them as they see fit. It seems to me that that would cause the chaos that you're trying so hard to prevent. And if they don't, then who made you king of the world? How come only you get your own special personal rules? See what I'm getting at? On either side of the coin it doesn't work.
And this just goes along with my point I just made. Instead of everybody (namely, you) trying to approach the rules with a magnifying glass, trying to see how you can twist it's meaning to the shape that is most convenient to you, why don't you all just I dunno take it for what it is? Seems easier and less complicated to me. I mean, afterall it's one rule, how hard can it be?
Nobody says you have to just blindly follow the system. But like I said in one of my previous posts, had you bothered to read it thoroughly, you could've brought it to him privately instead of grandstanding in public forum, waving your fingers about with your asscrack showing. Your goal was fine, no problem with what you were trying to do, but your execution was entirely tactless.
Ooh. Sorry I hurt your feelings. Never meant to do that. You have a real problem with addressing "personal notes" with the people you have a problem with in private, don't you? You have me on Skype, or better yet, is your PM button broken? You could've said that little bit to me, right there, in private. Maybe this is why people feel like you attack them. It was my understanding that by asking the general public their opinions, that's what you were prepared to get. And like I said earlier, I would expect any grandstand to have a few dramatic replies as well, because they fit the style. And you know, like I said earlier, since you decided to drop names and make it seem like you were looking for people to take sides in your little issue ("Well I have a problem with Metallix and blah blah blah"), I kinda felt that your OP was an attack against Metallix which i didn't appreciate. So now suddenly you're allowed to do it and I'm not? I don't care if you say "that's not what I was trying to do, I wasn't trying to offend Metallix" because guess what? That's not what I was trying to do either. I wasn't trying to offend you. So no, sorry, it stays unreeled.
Could have. Should have. You could've left names out of it and just made this public instead of clearly stating that you had a problem with someone specific. That just seems like... childish. I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out a way to word your OP without making it seem you're just talking about what happened between you two instead of the whole issue at hand.
Again. You can. It's just uncouth to do it in public. Have you ever had a job before? Like a real life, coworkers, boss, meeting type job? Let me use this analogy for you. You and your boss don't agree on something. You call a meeting to address things that have been going on in the workplace. Then in front of all your coworkers, you basically point your finger at your boss and lump his name in with all of the problems, essentially making it seem like he's your problem. You know what that boss would do? Come on, guess. That's right, he would fire you. Because it's disrespectful. You could've come to his office in private and discussed it. Just like here, but you chose not to.
Nobody has even pushed for the removal of the Shack. In fact, the only anti-Shack people I notice here, me and Lacen, (sorry if I missed someone but I don't think I did), both agreed that taking some of the activity outside of the Shack or Cottage whatever and leaving some in there would be beneficial. I believe Ktim also said he saw a point when I provided an example.
Haha, I see you man. I believe I specifically suggested at least 2 suggestions (probably more lost amid the clutter of everything I had to say), but I'm not doing anything but moaning about it? Did you even read my posts? Did you? Nah, you just extracted a few things to quote and didn't even bother looking at the constructive parts. Maybe that's why "nothing gets done" because when suggestions are made they get ignored in favor of arguing with something completely not beneficial. Why don't you read over my posts again, slowly this time, and pick out the helpful things that I said. Then read over those again, slowly, before making the sweeping statement that nobody tries to do anything about it. I'm sure you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised.
I'm sorry if you feel that I was pushing for more rules or even the removal of the Shack. I wasn't, and I didn't mean to come off that way. I just think that one rule is pretty lax and it's not a hard rule to follow. But with people like Ludi making several bullet points under that one rule and just mucking everything up, I can see why a discussion like this would probably lean more towards how the Shack is a problem. But I stated at least twice that I like the way the Shack is going and I think it is being used very well and is beneficial. And I wasn't the only one who might be "anti-Shack" who said that it is good for creating a sense of community. But yeah, nobody in this topic called for the removal of the Shack, nor for there to be more strict rules applied. All that was being called for was the enforcing of the singular rule that is in place, to try and slowly and steadily move activity elsewhere also, not instead of.
Again, I made a couple of suggestions, why are they being ignored? By the people who could actually help put these suggestions into place and start something going, no less? I have seen (and quoted, look above) TWO people now who are like "Well I don't see you guys doing anything about it..." And I'm like... uh... hello. I made suggestions in this very topic. I do ask that you go back and look for them in my previous posts before making the sweeping statement that nobody is trying to do anything. They are there, and there can be more, from others, too. |
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| RabidChoco | Jan 25 2014, 09:34 AM Post #22 |
Sandopolis Act 2
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Without serious evidence that others like the same things I do, I don't create new topics about them in their proper places for fear of them not garnering any attention; when I KNOW that I'll get some attention (and maybe the accompanying evidence of common interest), usually, in the Shack. Then, since I'm so inclined to being lazy, I just carry the discussion on in the Shack rather than start the topic. (Again, pretty sure others see this as a familiar situation. Correct me if I am wrong.) tl;dr: We're people, and people are lazy. Simple as that. |
| Indeed, there is nothing more repulsive than these monsters that defy nature and are known by the name of witcher, as they are the offspring of foul sorcery and witchcraft. They are unscrupulous scoundrels without conscience and virtue, veritable creatures from hell capable only of taking lives. They have no place amongst decent and honest folk. | |
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| Breakfast Princess | Jan 25 2014, 09:48 AM Post #23 |
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The most important meal of the day
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I see your point, it's a good one. I think you are correct, that is a situation people can encounter a lot. I don't think we should just write it off as people being lazy though. And I am positive that there is a solution to it that we might not be seeing yet. Well actually I did suggest, and I think someone(s) backed me up, that perhaps not only posting your interest in the Shack but then also creating a topic for it in the correct place might be a good thing to try? You're right, you'll get attention in the Shack. And if you're getting attention or common interest, a simple copy and pasting of the link to your topic can easily and seamlessly direct the rest of the conversation to the proper thread. Even if people have to repeat themselves a bit, say they made a point about the topic in the Shack, then went over to the actual thread you created. I'm sure no one is too lazy to do a simple copy paste. They will probably find more things to add when they come to talk about it again too. It's worth a shot, what's the worst that can happen? Like Metallix said, "at least you tried!" The goal I'm pushing for here is to direct some of the flow of activity outside of the Shack (as slowly and steadily as need be), while still keeping the flow and freedom of the Shack that people like. It's not impossible. And nothing is gonna change if people don't make it change. |
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| Lady theori | Jan 25 2014, 12:30 PM Post #24 |
all systems go
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I hope my input is okay. I haven't really frequented SB in a long time (I joined when I was 17; I am now 23. It's been a while, pls no h8), but I do see these same issues on here that I see on my own forum. Obviously, I won't name it, but we have maybe... 500-600 active members? And all parts of the forum are fairly active, so I hope that helps strengthen my credentials when I post here. Erm, anyway... So I believe in a proactive approach instead of shaming people or calling anyone out, so I will list some of my experiences/suggestions here. What we did to kind of curb the off-topic/chatty posts is we've made a journals section, and an AMA (ask me anything) section. The journals section is pretty obvious, but AMA is so people can feel that they are sharing parts of themselves with other users, and it's in the correct, kind of catch-all place. The rules of our AMA forum is that it does NOT turn into a chatting thread, and it stays mostly to asking questions (of course, Mobians do add in their chit-chat stuff, but there is always at least one question in the post). I'm not sure if this forum would benefit from it, but from my experience, it helps shyer people kind of reach out and try to find people who have similar interests, or just for silly casual questions. Take the information as you will, but I hope it at least spark inspiration, perhaps, as a replacement for The Shack. Again, oh god, please don't crucify me, I'm just putting out an idea. x_x I've seen this topic getting really heated and I'm a bit worried about posting here, but I am by no means telling anyone what to do, I'm simply speaking from experience and hoping I can throw out an idea. The other idea I've had is perhaps Neo Metallix can start a small donation fund, and with the money he receives, he can put up advertisements via Project Wonderful. I have personally used PW for my own site, and the traffic we get from it is staggered, but it really adds up. With about $50, you can keep ads running all day, if you play your cards right. If this idea is helpful, I'd be more than willing to expand on how to use PW, since I know it's a bit difficult to understand, but I don't even know if this is something anyone would be interested in. It would absolutely help with traffic, and maybe turning the forum a bit more active, but it does cost real money, so that can be a pretty difficult aspect. However, PW is also what places like MSPA use to get their ads from. MSPA is probably the highest profile Mobian on PW, and we usually get a lot of Homestuckers when we advertise with PW. I know a lot of you are into Homestuck, so I think PW would absolutely cater to SB's target audience. Anyway, thanks for reading, and again, I am not trying to come off as combative, so please do not take it that way. I'm also terribly sorry if I missed the mark with this, but it seems to have strayed away from the Shack and is more about the general forum itself, which yes, I have also noticed that it's hayday seems to be over, though I feel really awful for Neo Metallix, since from what I know, his interests revolve mostly around cars and SB. :> |
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| Breakfast Princess | Jan 25 2014, 02:30 PM Post #25 |
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The most important meal of the day
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I think we have something like an AMA thread, but I think it's for the staff. I don't know if there is one for everybody, I would have to check or ask somebody else. Seems like an interesting idea though. Personal thought: I figured that forums were pretty much for shy people anyways. Not only shy people, but I thought it was a way for them especially to branch out and talk and socialize with friends with common interests. You'd have to be double shy to not only frequent on forums, but to also have trouble speaking up on said forums. Just a bit of psychobabble. |
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HollyYoshi
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Jan 25 2014, 04:04 PM Post #26 |
I object to your claims
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That might work. At the very least you'd get people to actually look at the topic. Who knows? Maybe they'll find something that interests them. Or think of more to add from the original conversation in the Shack, like you said.
We have it where members can post blogs in their profile. It doesn't get much activity, but the option is certainly there.
The only examples of an AMA thread for anyone other than staff I can remember were those 'interview' threads that would pop up from time to time in the Casino Park. Needless to say, questions were kind of... out there. However, don't think I'm knocking down the idea - proper implementation of something like that could prove to be useful.
Nah, your ideas are appreciated, as are everyone elses. 
I wouldn't call it really heated, but I have been seeing hints of it going that way. We can all be civil here, right? 'Course we can. 
Edited by HollyYoshi, Jan 25 2014, 04:08 PM.
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| Lady theori | Jan 25 2014, 04:15 PM Post #27 |
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all systems go
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Ah, sorry, like I said, I haven't really been here, so I apologize for missing the journals and semi AMA threads. Thanks for taking it into consideration, though, and for reading my stupidly long and apologetic post! If I can think of any other workarounds, I'll surely post them. 
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| Ludichaos | Jan 26 2014, 01:38 AM Post #28 |
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[Outrealm Vagabond]
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Eyup. Ah well. My objection was raised and overruled, might as well turn the thread into something constructive. The problem with Journals here is that they're tucked away in a place nobody ever looks. Unless you bother to bring attention to them yourself with a link in your signature or something, nobody goes looking. The journals would have to be made more central to the forum. Like a sort of Community Content page or something. |
| 【One third of Sonic Blast's Legendary Australian Trio. The last remaining member 】 | |
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