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- "Kill It" Paul Ryan Medicare plan
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| "Kill It" Paul Ryan Medicare plan; And how it's not going to work | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 24 2011, 06:50 PM (947 Views) | |
| Lord Bowie | May 24 2011, 06:50 PM Post #1 |
What is the difference between a duck?
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When do I start to take care of me? THIS is the plan.. end Medicare as it is known and presumably leave senior citizens out to dry. This radical plan proposed by Paul Ryan was so eloquently laid out by Georgia Congressman Rob Woodall.. "When do I start to take care of me.." When do I decide I'm going to take care of me? When do I decide I am going to take care of me in the middle of a recession with shaky retirement pay.. possibly with no social security at all, with no medicare, with no medicaid.. I decide I will rot slowly, because I will be helpless and I don't want to mooch off my kids who'd probably have their own problems. Notice that most of the people clapping at that line were younger people, who will be fine with seniors getting the short end of the stick until they are seniors themselves.. that's when the shoe will be on the other foot. When will they decide they are going to take care of themselves? *** The magical fantasy land that Ryan, Woodall, and Conservative supporters of the Ryan Budget live in.. that everyone can just take care of themselves once they have been long since retired, these people pay into Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security all their lives and now the "plan" is to either privatize these entities and turn them essentially into glorified insurance conglomerates (which wouldn't work) or self destruct them all together. People like you and me and these seniors can't vote for their own pay raise like Mr. Woodall and Mr. Ryan can, we don't control our income and when it is gone it is gone, and now that the seeds of Universal Healthcare are planted, Ryan and his backers are going to try and cripple the growth by killing the only means that some people have to afford their medications, a slap in the face of the disabled and elderly. The plan is more of the same.. cut as many lines of support to the middle and lower classes as possible to try and pull away from ANYTHING that the GOP deems "non-capitalistic" when the truth is that, just like Pure Communism.. Pure Capitalism is unstable and unhealthy.. and while we have found a semblance of socialistic-capitalistic balance.. the forces that be are looking to rip away whatever they can, Medicare being the newest target... and force the lower classes into unaided poverty... and it's all so they can add a few zeros to their paycheck. While it may still be early in the political season, the public seems to have woken up a bit.. they've seen what's been going on in Minnesota and Michigan, and now they see what Ryan proposes to take away next.. workers unions, medicare, medicaid, social security.. every major achievement of every democratic president EVER, The fair deal, the new deal, the great society.. Truman, LBJ, FDR.. current conservatives are looking to spit on it and stomp it into non existent mush.. and NOW they are being fought.. fought by liberals in Washington with a new passion I haven't seen in years.. fought by liberals.. in congresses in almost every state in our great union.. and by people, both red and blue country wide. Only a few hours ago.. the winds of resistance were blowing.. right into the face of the ones who call themselves fiscally conservative. New York's 26th district just elected (D) Kathy Hochul to represent them in the US Congress. One of the deepest red districts in the nation, that has only had 4 Democratic representatives since 1853, NONE of them serving more than one term in the district (the most recent was elected in 1993 and was later re-districted to the 22nd) she has won this district by a fairly wide margin. The prime reason being Jane Corwin's vocal support for the Ryan plan. Now, chief conservative presidential candidates Tim Pawlenty and Mitt Romney are sprinting away from the Ryan plan as fast as they can, along with every other conservative candidate left.. no one wants to be associated with it.. except for maybe Newt Gingrich, but the king of flip-floppers with no ideological stance on anything seems to change his views with the wind. Ryan's plan is set to die in the senate, and with it, any remaining person who is supporting it, along with anyone who may have even had second thoughts about supporting it.. and Mr. Ryan's legacy will be that of his Kill Medicare plan.. short lived. |
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| Silv™ | May 24 2011, 08:17 PM Post #2 |
Trying to go with a theme this time
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I see you're politically active and expressive in (bias) ways. But after reading this this was my reaction to the post itself: "OK, cool. So what?" So, what is there to talk about? Guy 'kills' medicare bill, Republican majority district votes for a Democrat, blah blah blah, Woodall this, Hochul that, Ryan plan gets support from Conservatives.... So what?! This is the smallest little skirmish that's not even on mainstream news channels and it's a clearly bias point of view you twist the story into through your zeal. Now I am a liberal but I just think you may be taking things as if it's the 60's with Gorbachev and JFK on either sides, threatening nuclear holocaust. It's not! |
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| Lord Bowie | May 24 2011, 10:15 PM Post #3 |
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What is the difference between a duck?
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War isn't the only thing that can be devastating to a nation.. It gets me hot under the collar because there is no good reason to strip away the New Deal, Fair Deal, or Great Society legislation.. I am pro social stimulation and all the Ryan Plan does is take away all of these things and then lose those profits by cutting taxes on corporations.. so it's not saving money, it's just a redistribution of wealth. I've always been a liberal leaning independent because I support most liberal legislation and because the Republicans in Congress and the Tea Partiers are all big babies who are trying to strip away a lot of the things that make this nation great at the cost of average people. And as far as the Tea Party is concerned.. I hate how they like to pose as a party of the people when all of their legislation is ULTRA conservative compared to typical Republicans.. I'd always prefer more middle of the road politicians like Mitt Romney.. but I'd take a hard liberal before I'd vote for a hard conservative because they both operate their own form of big government.. and I prefer big financial behemoth government to big.. I'm up all in your personal freedoms conservative big government. The Paul Ryan plan is destructive legislation and anyone who has been attached to it has been hurt severely in political standing and it shows because a HUGE republican stronghold fell to a Democrat in what was supposed to be a big red year. It's a much bigger issue than your understated description, but you don't think of it as highly because it doesn't directly affect you.. yet. And it's a problem with people, if it doesn't affect them they DON'T think about it.. but people still need to realize that these things are here for a reason and radically changing them or throwing them into the shredder could be a death blow for our nation that is still trying to recover from recession. Our economic power at home comes from below, the purchasing power and financial wealth of our nation's people, the blue collar middle class.. AND our nation is getting older.. by cutting off the supply lines to an aging population you kill economic growth and put us in a hole we will need decades to dig out of. And when the economy goes.. everything goes with it in a ripple effect like it did in the 80's.. and then you'd feel it. Luckily, it seems like the plan has no life left. So while you call myself biased, and I may call myself simply critical of the way the political landscape is unfolding.. at least none of us will have to deal with horrible legislation being pushed through by politicians that have no business ripping away the roots of financial security in this nation. |
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Saff Profile // Kam Profile // Sadistic Profile Stop by my art thread ----------------------------------------------- SUPER DA PAGE WARNING: Above Post May Contain Sarcastic/Harsh/Stupid/Offensive/Idiotic/Blasphemous Content. Deal With It. ______________ What's the difference between a champion and a challenger.. a challenger is trying to become, a champion became. | |
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| Fwiss | May 25 2011, 02:59 AM Post #4 |
Sandopolis Act 1
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As a note, I'd almost say the Tea Party was good. It may make moderate Republicans feel intimidated and vote Democrat, or at least not vote Republican. Not that that's relevant... As a starting note for me, medical legislation with the word 'kill' in it is not cool. Not only is it senior citizens who can't take care of themselves, but the mentally and physically disabled, too. But then again, at its base, I don't understand the 'take care of yourself' mindset. My conservative friend told me he didn't care about donating to starving countries because it's their own fault. Yuck. Anyhoo, I'm gonna go eat my Stalin n' FDR O's. They're Socialiscious! |
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| Phoenix-Saturn | May 25 2011, 07:26 AM Post #5 |
i just wwant to be beautiful for this one month
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I feel bias here. Also, if people aren't supporting this, as you say in your last paragraph, then there's no point for this topic. This will just die out along with all other unsupported bills. Also, I thought your guys' Health System was private? |
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Neo Metallix
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May 25 2011, 01:14 PM Post #6 |
~Doomsday Overlord~
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Bowie and you both are making this out to be politics more than the issue itself... Conservative this and Liberal that... You guys are too obsessed with politics. Being concerned and active in politics is one thing but to where it consumes you, it becomes hazardous for your health and I guarantee you at least one democrat in office will vote yes for that so it's not like the parties are always so uniform on their beliefs. The way I see it is we should just oust the party system all together. |
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| Lord Bowie | May 25 2011, 02:11 PM Post #7 |
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What is the difference between a duck?
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I'm making it about politics because that's what it is, the politics we are living with today is where the two sides are essentially polar opposites, and going against the tide is frowned upon. No Democrat is going to vote to kill Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, those are the three primary programs that the whole party is founded upon.. social stimulation.. Conservative factions severely miscalculated in thinking that people would buy this budget plan and I was worried that it would have some steam in office but I bring up the Paul Ryan budget because it goes so much farther than paper.. it is the essential makeup of the conservative gameplan which, if executed, would KILL the middle and lower classes.. that budget saves no money because all of the money "saved" from the dead programs is merely redistributed to the top in corporate tax subsidies. As far as the social sector is concerned lately I'm extremely biased towards the Liberal approach because not only is it right.. but the conservative approach is dangerous and destructive and America would be fundamentally changed for the worst if anything like it passed, and I don't want to see anything like what that plan proposes in this nation's politics.. it's almost evil. @Kyubey - Not exactly.. healthcare, mostly for the disabled and elderly has been aided by the government through Medicare and Medicaid that was established in Lyndon Baines Johnson's Great Society legislation meant to stack on the New and Fair Deals won by presidents Truman and Roosevelt. Along with Social Security which provides for a semblance of a revenue stream for the elderly or disabled once retired (funded through the income tax of the current generations working class.. essentially meaning you're getting what you pay into the system) it gives them something to live on and brings the cost of appointments, prescription drugs, and procedures down along with whatever discounts provided by the private insurance companies who are now threatened by the Universal Healthcare System proposed by President Obama that isn't going to turn people away due to age or previous circumstance condition like the private entities that currently run the show. If something like the Ryan budget were to ever pass all of these systems would die, as he also allocated NO funding for the growth of UHC, which essentially starves it. And his plan would remove Medicare and Medicaid.. leaving the healthcare insurance companies with a complete monopoly over the elderly, and either axing SS all together or turning it into something like a monetary supplement private agency that would pay you far less than what you paid into the system and could completely turn you away for the same reasons the insurance companies can.. leaving disabled and elderly folks with no revenue stream and NO health care because they would have little to no money to pay the conglomerate insurists. That is NOT the America I want to see.. ever.. and just because the plan has been exposed for what it is doesn't mean it deserves no discussion.. the fact that even for an instant it had the slightest chance of succeeding was scary, dreadfully scary. |
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Saff Profile // Kam Profile // Sadistic Profile Stop by my art thread ----------------------------------------------- SUPER DA PAGE WARNING: Above Post May Contain Sarcastic/Harsh/Stupid/Offensive/Idiotic/Blasphemous Content. Deal With It. ______________ What's the difference between a champion and a challenger.. a challenger is trying to become, a champion became. | |
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| Silv™ | May 25 2011, 02:16 PM Post #8 |
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Trying to go with a theme this time
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What you said, Metallix, is basically a Bliz post version of what I was trying to say. Sure it's alright to discuss more controversial stuff like Osama's death and what0not, but things like this is that's almost meant to twist my political views is just overdoing it. Being passionate about something is one thing, being passionate politically gets turned into obsession mixed with an over expressionistic political mind, in short called ranting. Politics (aswell as religion) are very sensitive topics to be posting up strong beliefs about on a weekly basis, and can quickly become spewed into huge flame wars and all it ever ends up accomplishing are mods Mods and Admins to start swinging ban hammers and placing locks (Could also be dangerous for your rank, too). Let's try to avoid this, alright? Glad you understand (Or tried to). |
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| Lord Bowie | May 25 2011, 02:25 PM Post #9 |
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What is the difference between a duck?
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I have political debate with Yves all the time and it never turns into a flame war.. the only thing that gets heated is our stances on issues.. it's not turning into a flame war, to say that speaking of politics is going to stir up a hellstorm means that you think lowly of this forums capacity to have a meaningful debate or talk on anything. And It's not bad to know politics, they are what make up your nation no matter where you are and If something bad is coming I would like to know.. anymore people are either too passive or scared or whatever to talk politics, and the younger generation either doesn't give a damn or they think we need to redo the whole system.. neither stance is really all that productive or intelligent.. I hear Anarchists all the time "DOWN WITH THE SYSTEM" and then it just branches out to "DOWN WITH PARTIES" e.t.c. The Tea Party is the exact reason why the American public at large cannot run this country, it is why we need these representatives.. you put narrow minded buffoons of ANY persuasion, liberal or conservative, in office and you hit road blocks.. one of those blocks just recently almost shut down the government which could have critically stunted economic growth.. and once politics hits the economy, that's where it hits you where it matters.. in your wallet... whether or not you give a damn. Balance in numbers and in mindset needs to be achieved, the whole last decade threw this nation out of whack and it will take at least 8 years from now to get us truly back on track.. and that's only if voters and politicians are proactive NOW. |
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Saff Profile // Kam Profile // Sadistic Profile Stop by my art thread ----------------------------------------------- SUPER DA PAGE WARNING: Above Post May Contain Sarcastic/Harsh/Stupid/Offensive/Idiotic/Blasphemous Content. Deal With It. ______________ What's the difference between a champion and a challenger.. a challenger is trying to become, a champion became. | |
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| Silv™ | May 25 2011, 03:01 PM Post #10 |
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Trying to go with a theme this time
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Just because you and Yves dont stir up headed arguments doesn't mean others won't. You can't just assume a bias topic that's beating up the Rights will go over well with everyone on the forum. I understand it's suddenly your duty to get the smallest tidbits of unnecessary information about politics out here, but I think its eventually going to strike a bad chord with someone down the road with your one-sided views. At lease leave things up for an open conversation, not Left-only political discussions. |
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Something I made long ago My Stamps Agnosticism, explained For my cousin, Akimoto Tieko: My color My Characters DeviantART Page FTW | |
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| Lord Bowie | May 25 2011, 03:09 PM Post #11 |
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What is the difference between a duck?
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You don't know me very well if you think I'm a hardcore liberal, that's all I have to say. |
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Saff Profile // Kam Profile // Sadistic Profile Stop by my art thread ----------------------------------------------- SUPER DA PAGE WARNING: Above Post May Contain Sarcastic/Harsh/Stupid/Offensive/Idiotic/Blasphemous Content. Deal With It. ______________ What's the difference between a champion and a challenger.. a challenger is trying to become, a champion became. | |
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| Fwiss | May 25 2011, 05:21 PM Post #12 |
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Sandopolis Act 1
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Personally, an internet debate is much better IMO. It's much more difficult to say provacative things, and since people are near a computer during the debate, it's much harder to lie due to the fact they can research. I think our forum's at least higher than large sites like DA or YouTube or the -chans).Also, I've never heard of this Paul Ryan dude. Tell me more. Also, that thing about economic balance between Socialism and Capitalism: The first at its worst would be somewhere around Totalitarianism, where the latter at its worst would be Anarchy. Kinda like saying every Left-winger is like Stalin and every Right-winger is similar to Hitler, it seems like the other side always views their enemy's worst part. But I suppose I'm stating the obvious. Edited by Fwiss, May 25 2011, 05:24 PM.
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| Lord Bowie | May 25 2011, 06:25 PM Post #13 |
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What is the difference between a duck?
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No neither is like Anarchy, both are economic systems. CAPITALISM --------USA-------- SOCIALISM ---------- CHINA --------- COMMUNISM It also looks like ------------ Distribution of Wealth Capitalism > Communism ----------- No that little "crocodile" isn't signifying Capitalistic dominance, it's showing how the spread of wealth is in each. In pure Capitalism, very few people have any wealth at all.. you have maybe a couple hundred thousand Bill Gates like figures and the rest of the millions are Joe Schmos who are mostly completely poor.. the closest thing to capitalism in the history of the world was in the medieval ages.. where Kings/Royalty and Nobles had all of the power and wealth, and everyone else was essentially a slave by default. In pure Communism.. everyone gets the same amount of money no matter the reason, while this sounds awesome, the country has to be able to spread wealth equally.. If America were communist, everyone would probably be Millionaires because of all of the wealth we have relative to our population.. Bill Gates ALONE is valued at 50 Billion.. 300,000,000+ dollars spread out to everyone and it would almost be un noticable. The downside to communism is that if this were the case.. noone would work or strive to succeed.. and our economy would most likely be far less healthy due to everyone's wealth, we would have to import EVERYTHING, and our own individual fortunes would certainly flounder.... Now when a HIGH population nation like China or Russia tries to execute Communism, the same thing happens.. only now, everyone is poor. There isn't enough wealth to spread around, people would usually live in poorer conditions, and lots don't work hard because they will never make more than they do now.. the only difference is that, they really don't have an option. In my last example, people didn't work because they were set.. in this scenario people have to work anyway, because otherwise they wouldn't even have the nickels and dimes they have to buy even the smallest bits of food. I don't like it when people see Communism and think "Dictatorship" you have to differentiate between the fact that Democracy vs. Dictatorship.. while intertwined, is another thing entirely. HOWEVER the comparisons you draw to world leaders is fairly accurate. Men like Hitler and Mussolini led fascist nations, fascism just being a Reactionary (or Radical Conservative) state of government. Granted conservatism for every nation is different due to whatever moral layout that country focuses on e.t.c. usually it favors a more religious stance.. much like the way the Third Reich was executed throughout Germany to achieve the Fascist state that Hitler so desired. Stalin too could be described as a liberal, he was a progressive forward thinking mind and was part of the Red Army that threw out the old guard.. he was also just a little crazy and paranoid and kept killing off the people under him.. afraid that one could rise up against him as he did against Lenin and Trotsky. Essentially, being assigned to his cabinet was a death sentence. But yeah.. Stalin was a bit too liberal in his plannings.. forwarding the nation at the cost of his people with long work hours of just complete intense labor.. he achieved his advances but the toll in lives set Soviet Russia back for a couple decades. And since you asked about Paul Ryan.. He's been a house representative for Wisconsin since 1999, and prior to this bill his claim to fame was apparently a chiseled body that he liked to show off. But as of 2010 he is rated as the ninth most influential conservative figure in US politics nationwide, in office or out.. and it was that influence that helped his bill see the light of day, though it seems like that bill is starting to drag him down with it, his "Roadmap for America's Future" wasn't the type of future most of us like to envision. In late January 2010, Ryan released a new version of his "Roadmap." It would give across the board tax cuts by reducing income tax rates; eliminating income taxes on capital gains, dividends, and interest; and abolishing the corporate income tax, the estate tax, and the alternative minimum tax. The plan would privatize a portion of Social Security, eliminate the tax exclusion for employer-sponsored health insurance, and privatize MediCare. On his blog, Ezra Klein noted that the plan would replace these health programs with a system of vouchers whose value would decrease over time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ryan#Roadmap_for_America.27s_Future Feel free to read up on him as much as you'd like from anywhere, this is just what I could provide in a pinch. |
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Saff Profile // Kam Profile // Sadistic Profile Stop by my art thread ----------------------------------------------- SUPER DA PAGE WARNING: Above Post May Contain Sarcastic/Harsh/Stupid/Offensive/Idiotic/Blasphemous Content. Deal With It. ______________ What's the difference between a champion and a challenger.. a challenger is trying to become, a champion became. | |
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| Katsuko | May 30 2011, 12:48 AM Post #14 |
Sandopolis Act 1
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I agree with Arachnid’s basic idea. Sonic Blast-style politics are politics of rants, of obsessive and hateful rhetoric based more on the slander of opposing viewpoints than any real basis in fact. The obsession, though, is not with politics: It is not an obsession with the real philosophy and fact that separates correct policy from destructive policy. The obsession is with partisanship, of the so-called good guys and bad guys. What creates the rant-like tone are terms like “The magical fantasy land that Ryan, Woodall, and Conservative supporters of the Ryan Budget live in,” which demonstrate a lack of respect for opposition and an inability to understand the reasoning behind such enemy opinions. This style is prolific in topics like this; it dominates substantial debate and degrades discussion to the point that we begin to receive complaints of bias, irrelevance, and hate even from those who ordinarily be inclined to agree with that bias. And this is why I try to avoid debating on here. Everyone should just take real classes in political science and economics. edit: And it's just killing me not to respond to this one part, so screw it, I'm going to:
Capitalism is a system proposed by the Scottish writer Adam Smith and developed by every free market economist from Ricardo to Keynes since. It is merely the idea that the economy works better when the governed and not the governors control the means of production. It rests on the philosophical ideas of personal sovereignty, private property, and the evil of coercion; it follows the pragmatic argument that a self-organized economy is more sophisticated and fair than one planned from the top-down. Feudalism comes from the opposite school of thought: socialism, the idea that the economy runs best when it is planned by the government and the government should therefore control the means of production. In the case of feudalism, the justification is usually that the monarch has the Divine Right to rule, or the Mandate of Heaven, so he has the right to distribute wealth according to the will of God. It denies personal sovereignty, destroys private property, and relies on coercion; it proposes that a planned economy is more effective than a self-organized economy. Saying that the feudalism of the middle ages is the height of capitalism is like saying that NAFTA was the height of American Protectionism, or that the Meiji Revolution was the height of Japanese isolationism. It's just backwards, and while I respect you as a person and a leader of immense character, Bowie, you constantly seem to speak with authority on topics you clearly know nothing about. Edited by Katsuko, May 30 2011, 04:29 AM.
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| Silv™ | May 30 2011, 07:44 PM Post #15 |
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Trying to go with a theme this time
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Since I see where this topic's going, I might aswell join the bandwagon. Let's face it; Capitalism, at least the US version, isn't going to last forever. If you think about it, the US has had it's fair share of socialistic, democratic and imperialistic times. It annoys me when someone starts waving the unconstitutional flag on something, because in the history of the US, how can you define the US being constitutional without a single contradiction in the past? You can't. The New Deal was very much unconstitutional, yet we could have never recovered from our economic depression without it. If the US ruled under the true definition of democracy, we would have collapsed during the '60. Now I'm not going to get too far into this, but just think about it; you can never really shut something down for it simply being unconstitutional, because who's to say it'll help or hurt us? Just like in the basic form of the Right and Left, a government system that works must have a little bit of both. Although one can never create the perfect utopia, sticking hard right or hard left will only sway us away from the goal. On a more grand scale, be a true capitalist or a true communist, you'll fall. |
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