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- Act III: Sonic's Game Stadium
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- The turning point for the Sonic franchise?
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| The turning point for the Sonic franchise? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 5 2009, 02:22 AM (1,829 Views) | |
| Radar | Apr 5 2009, 02:22 AM Post #1 |
Good to be back
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Unless you've been under a rock for a while, you'll know that the Sonic franchise has had a bit of a "gaming slump" over a period of time. However, my question is: When do you think was the turning point for Sonic games in 3D? If you want my opinion, I honestly think they managed to begin understanding Sonic's speed potential in Sonic and the Secret Rings. It is not my favourite Sonic game, but how Sonic Team managed to keep the fun platforming, but also add some insane turning and speed. (however, they never FULLY realised the potential untill Unleashed.  ) Thoughts?
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| Lady BlizShadow | Apr 27 2009, 01:55 PM Post #46 |
I still can't use this.
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As I have asked in the past, what proof do you have that this majority even exists? If you want a more relevant example: "9 out of 10 of my constituents oppose the financial rescue package, therefore it is a bad idea." Same thing-- The idea is considered bad simply based on its popularity. First off, I thought we were arguing about quality and not success which are not always directly correlated: Games that are bad from an objective standpoint can be successful and games that are good from an objective standpoint can be unsuccessful. But since we're on a supposedly new tangent, how do you even define a successful game? By sales, reviews from official critics, or both? If we're doing the former, Unleashed is Sega's second top-selling game of last year so it was definitely a successful endeavor. If we're going by reviews from official critics, then it was considered average-- Not super succcessful, but at the same time not horrific either. With both, you could still consider it an average or above-average endeavor. So how does its actual performance indicate that it was a bad game? Speaking of which, I go back to my aforementioned notion that you keep failing to establish this fictional majority concretely. You keep bringing up the implication that over half of the millions of people who have played Unleashed thought it was a terrible game exclusively because of the Werehog, but have not provided any proof of that theory whatsoever. How are you even determining this majority? You said I wax poetic about irrelevant matters which seems to imply that I argue off-topic. I will continue to point out that me even posting that topic and announcing illogically that I won the debate was mostly sarcasm and not meant to be a relevant rebuttal to the actual argument at hand in the first place.
First, I never said I always provide counter-evidence. I said that I challenge people's opinions on a logical level. Secondly, repetition is actually not a defense. EDIT: Didn't notice this part: I hope you know that I never speak for the majority of people because it has so far been impossible to prove a point given what I have to work with ie. The internet and my friends. Secondly, neither source does not dictate whether or not the idea was objectively sound in the first place. Technically sound ideas are shat on and technically bad ones are praised as well as vice versa. Popularity does not always equate to an object's actual quality; Subjectivity =/= objectivity. That's all I've set out to prove. I never said that because I don't speak for everyone. I'm speaking from my own personal perspective. xP Unleashed sold well despite the critics and got mostly average and above average reviews. So how is it a failure? Edited by BlizShadow, Apr 27 2009, 02:23 PM.
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 Because staff made me do it. =P Art Topic ~ Drawing Tutorial ~ The Seven Chaos Forum | |
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| ExTengoku | Apr 27 2009, 02:25 PM Post #47 |
Skype ID: mipnxx
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Eighteen, you're already in the wrong for three reasons. 1: I specifically asked everyone to go back on topic, and post in the right damn topic if it's about something else. You clearly ignored my request, and fired this shit up again. And since Bliz, who happens to be an admin, also requested, that therefore means you are disobeying an admin's request. 2: You start a debate against BlizShadow, expecting you could win, making this topic farther and farther off topic. Just because she won the werehog debate doesn't mean you try to win by putting it somewhere else. There is a werehog topic, it finished, don't bring it up on a different topic. 3: Because your talking back, and Bliz has more power than you on this forum, and she requested to go back on topic, means you have *counts* 4 counts of disobedience, and 2 counts of spamming (6.5 Spamming (Useless Posting) "Comments that do not relate to the topic." making it possibe for you to have gotten 1 to 3 warnings by now. The werehog has became off-topic, because people were arguing/flaming about the werehog sucks or not, that being qualified as trolling. Now, must I say again, shut up, get back on topic, or I'll reuest this topic closed.  So, arguing won't let you win, it'll just take you into deeper sh*t. Edited by ExTengoku, Apr 27 2009, 02:33 PM.
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| Lady BlizShadow | Apr 27 2009, 02:29 PM Post #48 |
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I still can't use this.
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In Eighteen's defense, I have lost terribly at arguments on here. I've also mutually engaged in this off-topic discussion with him as well. (@ Eighteen: I thought you were splitting the debate. o.o) But amidst your brown-nosing, you still have a relevant point. Back on topic everybody. xD |
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Because staff made me do it. =P Art Topic ~ Drawing Tutorial ~ The Seven Chaos Forum | |
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| ExTengoku | Apr 27 2009, 02:35 PM Post #49 |
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Skype ID: mipnxx
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Where were we? 
Oh yeah. Now where were we before that? >_> Edited by ExTengoku, Apr 27 2009, 02:37 PM.
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| Lord Bowie | Apr 27 2009, 03:02 PM Post #50 |
What is the difference between a duck?
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I think Unleashed is a good game based on what I've seen. To expand on what's already said I think to a person who WASN'T a Sonic fan prior, the Werehog beat-em-up element is helpful. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself or my friend who I'm about to mention but.. me and my friend Justin are good buds. A few months back I brought Unleashed over to his place and I got him to play it, and he actually enjoyed the whole experience (this without EVER playing any Sonic game outside of the original) especially the ending boss fights and Eggmanland, which took us forever to beat but was a fun challenge. What I'm saying is what is already known. People who are already staunch Sonic fans are too partial. Yes me and my friends think the CONCEPT of the Werehog is corny but it played well, and in the end gameplay is what makes or breaks a game. It was a nice speed buffer to play slow from time to time, and I wish that there were more levels like Eggmanland, that alternate between slow and fast. But in the end, it's about as solid as I'd expect. There is no statistical consensus majority, there is just an undetermined pair of groups, those who dont like the Werehog and those that do, and either group can have their "John McCains" (that lean the other way despite being sided oppositely) and based on varying reviews and the very good sales statistics, Unleashed was a successful creation, no matter how Werehog biased one may be. Plus there will never again be a Werehog unless SEGA pulls a illogical revival (Shadow) again. So it is a turning point in whatever way you want to look at it, Werehog partial or not. |
Saff Profile // Kam Profile // Sadistic Profile Stop by my art thread ----------------------------------------------- SUPER DA PAGE WARNING: Above Post May Contain Sarcastic/Harsh/Stupid/Offensive/Idiotic/Blasphemous Content. Deal With It. ______________ What's the difference between a champion and a challenger.. a challenger is trying to become, a champion became. | |
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| ExTengoku | Apr 27 2009, 03:28 PM Post #51 |
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Skype ID: mipnxx
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Unleashed gave me high hopes after I played it. I think that 2009 will bring me shame, 2010 will rock, and the pattern will just continue. |
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| Spikes The Phantom | Apr 29 2009, 06:46 AM Post #52 |
 
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Well im glad Political Debate: Sonic the werehog is over... i couldn't understand some of your words up there...but anywho,after thinking over the whole sonic series i finally come to a conclusion that the true turning point for the series is....Multiple games when sonic's first series finished a number of Spin-offs were released this was generally turning point number one because sonic didn't have a good game for a good while. sonic climbed back up(turned back up again) with Sonic Adventure, gained many fans loss some. the SA2 and SA2B(i honestly dont remember the difference) brought in a new element to the series that no one had ever heard of: CHAOS CONTROL! this sparked a bunch of new fans to the series also brought Sonic's most powerful rival, Shadow, into existence. Sonic heroes Quenched the newly developed thirst for Shadow also bringing back one of the loved elements of the game: Metal Sonic. Sonic heroes certainly gained many fans. With the release of shadow the hedgehog everyone seem to frantically want to see the mysteries of this new character this boosted his fan base, but..... Original gamers and People who disagree with a sonic game rated over "E" Shunned the Idea of Guns & curse words used by sonic characters, fans are lost. That was the second turning point, even though shadow the hedgehog had many fans and it should be a good game people still hated this originality. But from then on.... turning points cannot be truely determined because the fan base has slightly decreased with each new game until... 3 games were presented: Sonic Unleashed, SatBK, and finally Sonic Chronicles(is that the title i cant quite remember) these games caused a slight rise and could be the next turning point depending n what Sega & Sonic Team has to follow them up. |
 Here one second, then gone the next~ | |
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Apr 29 2009, 04:53 PM Post #53 |
Lava Reef Act 2
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But he was deemed a hedgehog since day 1. Never was he deemed a werehog. In all honesty, if you don't agree then I'll just voice that it was just a stupid idea. True that. And all those forms (Super and Darkspine) are UPGRADES to Sonic. The werehog COMPLETELY changes how Sonic is played as. It was a bad idea. Try to avoid double posting when it isn't necessary.. there is an edit button for a reason. ~ Bowie Edited by Bowie, Apr 30 2009, 12:37 AM.
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Apr 29 2009, 05:26 PM Post #54 |
The Game Designer
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*gasp* What is this...double post? I am ashamed of you, Ray. But I would expect nothing less from someone who walks around in a Pokemon costume. |
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| Katamaont | May 1 2009, 02:01 AM Post #55 |
Skald of the North
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If nine out of ten of your constituents think it's a bad idea, then yes, it's a bad idea. That's how democracy works, and it does indeed work, because if you instate anything with that much of a majority against you, you're not going to do too well in office and once you're out, the plan will be withdrawn. I have faith in the consensus of the politically active public, the people who care enough to vote on these polls, just as I have faith in the consensus of game critics. Sorry, I was a little vague there. Since we're talking about turning points, a game needs to have both quality and success. A game that sells poorly but is a genuinely good game as described by reviews won't change much, because game companies care about profits. A game that sells very well but gets low reviews from fans, critics, and individual gamers will also not be a turning point, because the company will continue to make games of that low quality. Yes, Unleashed did well in terms of sales, but Sega's always been great at hyping their franchises and keeping fans glued to IGN searching for trailers of the next big release. In reviews, though, it got low seventies on Metacritic and was generally given, at most, a noncommittal twitch of the corners of the fans' mouths. It was better than Heroes and 06 for sure, as well as Secret Rings, but that doesn't make it a turning point. Sega has a long way to go before it reestablishes Sonic as a franchise for the gamer core to sink their teeth into, and by the looks of Black Knight, they didn't get the memo. I don't understand how you can call a majority fictional when it's everywhere. I gave sixteen independent reviews that rated Unleashed a score that'd fail it in some universities. I've offered to get the opinions of people I know who aren't ravenous Sonic fans but are core gamers in every sense of the word who've played the game as well. Meanwhile, you've yet to show me anyone who honestly thinks Unleashed is to Sonic as perl was to coding. You know how polls, which define a majority, work, Bliz. We don't go around asking the five hundred thousand people who've played the game what they think, especially since three quarters of them are just casual gamers who'd go "i duno i gess it was ok how shud i no". We look at what the core gamers, who know the difference between a game of high quality and one without, and we look at a number significantly smaller than the half million to represent the population. No, you weren't off-topic, because it was your own topic, Bliz. What you were doing was saying the Werehog was great because the character represents philosophical concepts, which is like saying Spore was great because it reflected humanity's position in the grand scheme of things and symbolizes the butterfly effect. It was an OK game, and the reason people like it is certainly not because it sends the mind on a wondrous intellectual trip, and it's the same with the Werehog. The literary implications that may or may not have been intended are irrelevant to the quality of the subject, not that what you were saying was off-topic. How can one challenge opinions on a logical level without providing evidence? You can say what you want to clarify your reasoning, but when it all comes down to it, it's just individual opinion - which, as I said, is completely worthless in the situation - unless you have some sort of evidence to back yourself up. And you're right, repetition isn't a defense, but what did I need a defense for?  Ah, you'd never speak for the majority? You only have the internet and friends...gosh, and here I am thinking that the opinions of billions of people isn't enough to form a statistic. Come on, Bliz...you like to debate. And...good ideas are shat on and bad ideas are praised? What, then, defines a good and bad idea to you? Whether or not you like it? So then, is Proposition 8 a good idea because some redneck in the north wants marriage to stay pure? Is wasting millions of dollars sending a man to the moon again a good idea because my dad doesn't think it actually happened and wants to see it done for real? Good ideas are defined by popular reaction, Bliz. They are not shat on, because if they are, they are bad ideas. OK, your own personal perspective. I'm sorry for tearing into you, but the individual opinion does not a fact make. And usually, a turning point can be pretty well defined when it comes to installations of a franchise. The turning point downward for Sonic is pretty universally viewed to be following Sonic & Knuckles. Unleashed did well financially, but it did not do well critically - so it was successful, but not of high quality. Don't think that sixties are average: for an ongoing game franchise in which tons of money is put into, that's on the low end of the scale. You'd expect at least mid-seventies. @Bowie: By that logic, wouldn't every game be a turning point? They all have their little quirks that'll never be seen again (hopefully  ). The way Unleashed would be a turning point is if following games used the same radical new concept/gimmick that characterized Unleashed, but the Werehog is nowhere to be found.@Marcus: Bliz and I have already been through what topic this belongs in. If every time a thread changed course even slightly, one had to start a new one, people wouldn't even bother...and apparently, even though there was a request for people to get back to talking about the Sonic games in general, people are still talking and mildly debating over Unleashed and the Werehog. Debates do escalate, mate, and they do change course. And if arguing with a mod is illegal, I certainly wouldn't want to moderate here, and I don't think Bliz'd be too pleased either; I've debated with her before, quite enjoyed it. And debating, or at least stating reasons for one's dislike, is not flaming or trolling, and I'm not sure where you got that concept from: flaming is raging at someone, swearing, namecalling, basically just acting like a five year-old who watches too many thrillers; trolling is saying or posting something for the specific purpose of pissing an individual or a group of people off, and getting a reaction so that one can laugh over it (see: lulz). Finally, this is the sort of things the Sonic boards are for. There's only so long we can calmly talk about how awesome the franchise is...for things to get interesting, they have to get a little more controversial. So chill . It's fun.
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 THE DUSTY FEDORA Latest blog entry: Psychology of the Capoeirista Under Fire My LiveJournal | |
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| ExTengoku | May 1 2009, 03:52 AM Post #56 |
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Skype ID: mipnxx
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Who cares if it's Sonic? Is it fun?  If it wasn't in a Sonic game, would you like it? That was the point. Introduce a new kind of gameplay so the series doesn't get stale from the same old stuff. Your pretty much implying that Sonic should only have upgrades, not downgrades, and that he should always stay the same. Staying the same is how franchises became stale. And don't even say Mario stays the same, cuz he was on everything under the sun in his recent game, and that, my friend, is a change.
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| Katamaont | May 1 2009, 10:17 AM Post #57 |
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Skald of the North
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There's good change, and there's bad change, however. I'm pretty sure if Mario turned into a Wereplumber there would be a lot of "WTF"s on the web, and a heavy loss of confidence in the Mario franchise among gamers. |
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THE DUSTY FEDORA Latest blog entry: Psychology of the Capoeirista Under Fire My LiveJournal | |
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| Radar | May 1 2009, 01:02 PM Post #58 |
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Good to be back
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Eighteen, I don't think the "Were-Plumber" would be recieved as bad as the Werehog, simply for the reason that sadly their fanbase is more open to suggestion as ours. |
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| Katamaont | May 1 2009, 03:53 PM Post #59 |
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Skald of the North
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I could look into that . Thirty's a good number for a statistic, amirite? Although Mario is a little more flexible...Mario Kart did much better than Sonic Riders, Mario Party did better than Sonic Shuffle, etc...there's a line that basically every fanbase draws.
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THE DUSTY FEDORA Latest blog entry: Psychology of the Capoeirista Under Fire My LiveJournal | |
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| Fenroar | May 1 2009, 03:58 PM Post #60 |
Perfectionist
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But do they make Sonic slow and take away what Sonic is known for? Um, no. Giving Sonic the werehog is like giving Mario a form where he can't jump. Fans will obviously lash if Nintendo creates such a game. But that's all I wanted to say. I have no interest in debating. |
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