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- Shadow... Stay Dead, Please?
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| Shadow... Stay Dead, Please?; Making SA2B Epic! | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 6 2008, 11:36 PM (343 Views) | |
| Maelic the Awesome | Sep 6 2008, 11:36 PM Post #1 |
Paper Doramu!
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Harsh title, huh?  Anyway, this is for discussion on an important aspect of SA2B that helped make the game's story as epic as it was. What aspect is that? It was Shadow's death.We were all so happy when we found out Shadow was alive for Battle and Heroes, but looking back... Shadow's death in the end of SA2B, where after turning from his evil ways to save the world from impending doom, he fulfilled his promise to a girl he loved from his past is epic. IT SENDS TINGLES DOWN YOUR SPINE, FOR GOODNESS' SAKES. GO LISTEN TO "IT DOESN'T MATTER" AND THINK ABOUT THAT. Whether it was a wise choice in earning money I don't and won't know, but I know it would've been a wise choice in taking the Sonic story in the right direction and forming an insta-classic. (Not to say SA2B isn't a classic, anyway, hah.) Shadow would have my complete respect if he had stayed dead. Now that he's alive... What was the point of the last cutscene? Why make it so emotional, only to rip it's heart out a year later?But SEGA milks Shadow for all he's worth by bringing him back and forming a massive fanbase primarily composed of anti-hero-obsessed n00bs. =/ No offense to Shadow fans, some of you aren't n00bs. Oh, yeah, not to mention they turned him emo. >__> Shadow became lame in my eyes after Heroes. He was so dark and cliche. He also killed Knuckles's role in the games. Knuckles deserved the rival position more than any other rival to come into existance. SEGA screwed up there, in my opinion. Can't you imagine the epic factor of SA2B if Shadow had stayed dead? Another thing, I wouldn't mind Shadow, if dead, having a game themed around his past, where you actually played as Sonic in the present and Shadow in the past and unravel the secrets of Shadow's past... Or something to that effect. I believe I've heard a similar idea to that somewhere... Now, to get it across, this isn't a Shadow hate topic. It's a topic to state what direction I think Shadow should have taken and how he could've made SA2B so much more epic when looking back on it. You have to admit that him dying back in SA2B would be epic. Discuss. Edited by Maelic the Awesome, Sep 7 2008, 08:31 AM.
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I'm Maelic, elsewhere known as Paper Doramu - Self-proclaimed artist and full-time nerd. If you're ever crediting me, PLEASE, label me as "Paper Doramu"!!! If you're just dying to know what it means, PM me... >.> This here is... Paper Doramu! My virtual self, I suppose. Yes, he's a freakin' drum. ^.^ 
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| Omega RKB | Sep 7 2008, 02:16 AM Post #2 |
You should not be here mortal! (and the rest...)
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My Plan to heal shadows story. Phase 1: Recall every copy of every sonic game after SA2 including shadow, and burn them due to the cruelty they have done in shadows story. Phase 2: Make sonic adventure 3, in which, they are looking for shadow, hoping he is alright, they find him dead, at this point the team realize that sonic learned chaos control back in the pod in SA2, but due to experience, would need at least 6 emeralds to do it. this game would include the char select screen from SA, and you would unlock 6 characters throughout sonics story, each character would find an emerald at the end of each story, after finding the emeralds, you would unlock a shadow story, in which you started with the group meeting and sonic uses chaos control, you would then see shadow on the ark at a time when maria was still alive and you would play through the game from just before maria's death up to shadows death, at which point sonic would appear and warp shadow back to the present thus making them both forget any rivalry's they had and be friends, but just as a really happy moment was happening, space time continuum was ripped open, which caused the angry chaos from the original sonic adventure to be unleashed into the present, you where even warped to the same battlefield as in SA, but this time it was shadow who turned super ( he had the seventh emerald in his hand, the eighth emerald caused by his warp is sucked back into the past along with chaos at the end of the battle ) and chaos was twice as hard as in SA. Phase 3: Release Sonic 06 again cause silver was an o.k character phase 4: Start asking fan advice before making story-lines! |
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| Timothy Ulysses, Crusader | Sep 7 2008, 02:20 AM Post #3 |
Oh no... I've become too attached to my avatar! I can't bear to change it!
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*FF7 Victory Fanfare* I agree with this topic heartily. I guess if I'd seen Shadow in a game where he wasn't so... well, I was going to say 'black', but 'dark' is probably a better word :D, I may have actually liked him. Instead, the first and only times I see this overpowered hedgehog in action are moments where his emo levels reach far over the 9000 mark. Oh, and he's a cocky little bas tard; I just want to slap him so much it hurts. It's like that movie, Titanic. Would you be satisfied if Leonardo Di Caprio came back to life inexplicably in Titanic 2 (of which there is no such movie)? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo, you wouldn't be (unless you're sickeningly naive). Edited by Timothy Ulysses, Crusader, Sep 7 2008, 02:21 AM.
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"I've heard legends of that person, how he traveled the breadth of the land reducing all he touched to rubble..."  Spoiler: click to toggle My fancharacters and my highly acclaimed Master Codex of Superpowers!  ___________________ Artwork by Sniper, gif by sMy PANCAKES. Yes, ALL of my characters wield or have been influenced by magic or magical items. So? Spoiler: click to toggle For the last time, YES, I hate Shadow! | |
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| Venoma3d | Sep 7 2008, 02:28 AM Post #4 |
BOOM,Headshot.
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Maelic one thing. SA2. not SA2B Because that's just being plain retarded. Last cutsene was emotional and awesome to the point where it couldn't be more awesome. Sides Sonic monologue in the game just approved of the WIN levels.But then again it was always stated that Shadow is the ultimate life form and you know, if you're the ultimate YOU CANNOT DIE. I wouldn't mind seeing Shadow in the sidelines from time to time if it wasn't for the fact that he snatched the rivalry from Knuckles. |
 I'm a Grim Bloody Fable With an Un-happy bloody end. | |
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| Rad Red | Sep 7 2008, 05:06 AM Post #5 |
Guardian of the Master Emerald
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SA2B was better. Deal with it. Anyways, I agree with this topic wholeheaterdly, you put my thoughts into words. |
The servers are the seven chaos. Chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the chaos. Only you can do this! Stop the Chaos Emeralds!          Spoiler: click to toggle ^IT'S OVER WE WON!!!^ | |
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| Venoma3d | Sep 7 2008, 05:46 AM Post #6 |
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BOOM,Headshot.
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So you mean Gamecube port of the game with all the easter eggs taken out was better? |
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I'm a Grim Bloody Fable With an Un-happy bloody end. | |
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| Omega RKB | Sep 7 2008, 05:53 AM Post #7 |
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You should not be here mortal! (and the rest...)
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who cares, thats not what this topic is about is it? |
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Eddie Izzard: Spoiler: click to toggle Signature: Spoiler: click to toggle My Plushy's and Dragons (please click on them): Spoiler: click to toggle Brawl Theme Spoiler: click to toggle | |
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BlizShadow
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Sep 7 2008, 01:54 PM Post #8 |
No. 1 Werehog Supporter!
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Doesn't the fact that he was actually willing to sacrifice his life mean anything to anyone? Did it ever mean anything to anyone? He actually needed to die in order to prove himself as possessing of good qualities? Forget the fact that he had, you know, actual character development. Death is apparently the only way to receive positive recognition for your actions! That's why I groan whenever this scene is brought up. It seems like nobody recognizes the fact that regardless of life or death or sequels, the emotional impact of SA2's last story remains consistent simply because Shadow took heroic action. He completely turned around and its been a characteristic of himself that he's had ever since. Heroes doesn't change the caliber of SA2's story or Shadow's character in that particular instance. So case in point-- Sequels do not ruin original stories. The original story's quality will always remain. If the original story was "ruined" by a sequel somehow, it probably wasn't that good or timeless to begin with. First off, the Classic trio is milked far more than Shadow is and always will be. After all, how do you explain Knuckles showing up in Rush with his only purpose being to break a boulder before leaving for the rest of the story? Secondly, the fact that you're still assuming that the majority of the Shadow fanbase is composed of "anti-hero obsessed n00bs" is very offensive to me, regardless of if you recognize an exception or not. I can name plenty of far worse fanbases out there, even in the Sonic community, and I wish this generalization was dead and buried so I could stop feeling like part of a problem. I also wish we didn't consider mourning for your dead friend or trying to remember your past "emo" anymore either. But I digress, why exactly does Knuckles "deserve" the rival position to Sonic? Forgetting the facts that Metal Sonic is actually Sonic's original rival and that there's no golden rule from God saying the hedgehog can only have one rival, what reason does Knuckles have to fight him anymore? Sonic's rescued his butt out of the fryer plenty of times and they've worked together on many an occasion. It's quite obvious that they have more or less the same moral grounding and no reason to seriously fight anymore, unless you just consider Knuckles so stupid that he should keep up a grudge which is ultimately useless. Now, if you couldn't already tell from my ranting, then yes; I am a very bitter Shadow fan and Sonic fan overall. <3 But if I'm going to stick true to the topic title, I will say that I obviously don't mind Shadow being alive and well. If I were to put my own spin on the events, I'd keep his original personality and expand on a few of he quirks he showed in SA2-- highlight his intelligence and ability to convince others to do his own building; keep him theatrical and charming, make him gleeful about large-scale destruction (I guess ShtH accomplished that sorta), and basically make him the most arrogant jerk Sega could have imagined. I think he would have remained a lot more tolerable for people then. And for the record, I would have done his spin-off very differently. No need to explain, I suppose-- Just look at the actual game for a few seconds. |
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Contrary to popular belief, I'm NOT leaving forever and ever. I'm just making sure you know that college may shave off a little SB time. Oy vey.... Anyways, been gone on vacation? Got grounded from the computer? Then, you've probably missed a lot. Catch up on the latest Sonic-related news! Current headline: Black Knight Information Explosion Also, clicky for all of my fan-related stuff! I promise you it's actually awesome! Spoiler: click to toggle ~*Quote Of The Moment*~ "... Why would you want to do anything for fans?... Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it...." -- Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw | |
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| Ray | Sep 7 2008, 03:19 PM Post #9 |
Biolizard
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Shadow is my favorite character, but I agree that SEGA had the cheesiest story in bringing him back in Heroes. If he's going to die, keep him dead unless you have a s good story. Other than that, I truly don't mind Shadow, but the cheesy resurrection still makes me feel uncertainty towards the series. The resurrection of Shadow also leads to Silver, a needless character in my opinion. SEGA thought they could make a new fanbase with a new hedgehog, but it's just taking the Sonic out of the games more and more. Edited by Ray, Sep 7 2008, 03:21 PM.
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| Haro | Sep 7 2008, 03:26 PM Post #10 |
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"Hmph."-In slow motion
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True. EVERYONE was happy when Shadow was Alive, but now he's been reduced to someone trying to take Sonic's spot as the SEGA mascot. I -did- imagine what'd happen if Shadow died. I honestly would respect him more and I too would be a Shadow Fan. But, when he came back, and appeared in virtually every game afterwards, it annoyed me. Shadow is cool and all, but now they're abusing his emoness to bring guns and crap to Sonic. If he died, though, he'd be respected greatly.
Knuckles DOES deserve the rival position. He was always his rival, and now he's like "Lulz hey sonic lets be best friends 4 life. Fuk tails". I miss Knuckles vs Sonic. But now Knuckles has been reduced to a side character almost. He's pretty much like Tea to Yugi, or one of those high school boys that Ichigo rarely sees, to Ichigo himself. It's not the same...
Yes, I can. Shadow seriously was hardcore win in SAB2. In Heroes, he was okay. But afterwards he just became a Sonic for Teens-18+s, and fuel for people to abuse chaos control for there Fan Characters. It'd have been cool if Sonic had little flashbacks to when he was with Shadow, but only like seeing his face 5 seconds in a game. Like Minato/Yondaime to Naruto. And if you don't like Naruto, Minato died. And he is respected so much that he has extreme fanboys. Shadow isn't dead, but he sure is dying in my eyes. He'll come back though. |
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| Reflection | Sep 8 2008, 01:50 PM Post #11 |
Terror of Death
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Oh for **Bleep**'s sake, why the hell did somebody delete my post? I'm pretty sure I posted here and I was just stating my opinion about Shadow. I broke no rule so you all had no right to delete my post. Anyway, I said Sega never planned to bring Shadow back but due to the whiny fanboys, they brought him back. And as for me and Shadow, I disliked him after Heroes. He kept acting like an emo pretty boy. He was also a bit overrated if you ask me because of the whiny fanboys demanding him in Brawl when Sonic was first revealed. I think making a whole game about him, despite the fact I actually enjoyed it a bit, was a bit unnecessary. I hope Sega will fix the whole thing about Shadow in Unleashed. Edited by Reflection, Sep 8 2008, 01:52 PM.
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cap
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Sep 8 2008, 01:56 PM Post #12 |
Wired to the moon
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I like shadow enough honestly. I mean, whats wrong, hes a pretty cool character all in all. But yeah, they had moment were shadow was presumed dead, and they brought him back, end off. If they didn't, he'd become just another scrapped character with people either forgetting him or complaining he should return. Honestly, theres no pleasing some people. |
 I just want to save you while there's still something left to save | |
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| SuperShadowgal | Sep 8 2008, 02:30 PM Post #13 |
The Female Ultimate Life Form!
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I admit, in some ways, the revival of Shadow was unnecessary. The SA2 storyline was quite heartfelt and upon revival, sort of ruined the moment (or even Shadow altogether). And Heroes really built up the Shadow the Hedgehog game; a waste of money (as I state time and time again), and a storyline that [I felt] was a bad ending for Shadow. I think the only revival storylines I enjoyed reading (before we had Heroes, etc.) were the nice/well thought (um, lolwut?) stories on Fanfiction.net (wait, they have good Sonic fan fiction?) or a few Sonic sites that have since been closed down. What was Heroes? "Hey guys, let's make Shadow return because the fans love him so much." "How're we gunna do that, he's dead?" "Let's give him amnesia, make 100 clones of him and gear it towards a T-rated (not the real rating) sequel! We'll be rich." "Damn, you're good" [also damn 4th Chaos Emeralds] I mean, sure Eggman does these types of things and you'd expect maybe a robot Shadow. But they way they executed how Shadow survived was ill on their part. I wouldn't have minded if Shadow was maybe revived (why I said "in some ways" in the beginning), but the storyline thus far would make me prefer he would have still been dead. I would prefer if it was executed differently. |
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The navigation (links): Sonic FCs* /|\ Art* /|\ Non-Sonic FCs* /|\ Hug? /|\ Awesome /|\ Blog *=Outdated    Adopted from Valenth Adoptionitis: It's kind of a bad thing. Quote for today/this week/forever: Spoiler: click to toggle
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| Rad Red | Sep 8 2008, 03:29 PM Post #14 |
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Guardian of the Master Emerald
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Yes. Yes, I do. BTW, fixed it Also, Super Shadow looked cooler when he was silver. Just throwin that out there. Edited by Rad Red, Sep 8 2008, 03:32 PM.
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The servers are the seven chaos. Chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the chaos. Only you can do this! Stop the Chaos Emeralds! Spoiler: click to toggle ^IT'S OVER WE WON!!!^ | |
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BlizShadow
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Sep 8 2008, 04:34 PM Post #15 |
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No. 1 Werehog Supporter!
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Super Shadow was never silver in the first place. =( |
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Contrary to popular belief, I'm NOT leaving forever and ever. I'm just making sure you know that college may shave off a little SB time. Oy vey.... Anyways, been gone on vacation? Got grounded from the computer? Then, you've probably missed a lot. Catch up on the latest Sonic-related news! Current headline: Black Knight Information Explosion Also, clicky for all of my fan-related stuff! I promise you it's actually awesome! Spoiler: click to toggle ~*Quote Of The Moment*~ "... Why would you want to do anything for fans?... Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it...." -- Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw | |
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| Maelic the Awesome | Sep 8 2008, 04:53 PM Post #16 |
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Paper Doramu!
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Oh joy, debate time. =3 Yes... Yes, the will to sacrifice your life is a big thing. But see, it just gives you that epic feeling when you think that someone has died accomplishing their goal in life. It's a sad and emotional event. Oh wait, you're alive? Oooh... Kay... It's just... All I can say is that it's not as epic. I'm aiming at epic here, not what became of Shadow. But I suppose Shadow had to become something good in order for that instance to be epic... But, you get my point. It just doesn't seem as epic anymore when looking back on it. Not really... The classic trio is only inserted to keep them in the series. They get NO spotlight, like they deserve, being that they helped shape what Sonic really is. Shadow has taken over Knuckles's, and in a way, Tails's role, as he is hogging the spotlight non-stop. A perfect example would actually be the boulder incident. Knuckles needed a bigger part than that, if you even wanna call that a part! Well, some of the Shadow fanbase is. And yes, there are far worse fanbases out there. It depends on who you're talking about with the Tails fanbase, but the rest of the Sonic fanbases are pretty cool. Now, when it goes to other games... Point is: The Shadow fanbase, in my opinion, is probably the worst of the Sonic fanbases. I got a little harsh with the n00b comment... But honestly, some of them are. That's not to bash you, because some of the coolest people in the Sonic community are Shadow fans. It depends on the person, really, so I halway take that comment back. Regarding the emo comment... It's just the way he acts about it. Had it been Sonic, he would've given it deep thought, but it wouldn't turn him into a gunslinging murderer. You can about imagina what Sonic would do. He would let the situation to fuel his determination, not to fuel a dark attitude. They ruined who Knuckles was by making more of a companion than a rival. Knuckles deserves the role of the rival for a few reasons, some being ignorantly silly and opinional, others being reasonable and factual. Although, my main point is: Knuckles and Sonic's personalities - Easy-going and stubborn - Make for a perfect rival combination. A lot of funny moments and intense action can easily spawn off of this. What happens when Sonic pulls out his liad-back attitude in front of Shadow? Shadow glares and looks away. >__> Sonic doesn't have to have just one rival. But he has enough. Metal Sonic was his evil rival. Knuckles was his friendly rival. Where does Shadow fit in? He just pushes them both out of the way. Knuckles can still be a friend, but he needs to be fueled in a rivalry relationship with Sonic due to both his personality and a need to be the better of the two. A few friendly fights, arguements, and Knuckles screwing up their heroics by trying to be better than Sonic would make for a perfect situation. Also, Metal Sonic was a perfect rival, too. He was Sonic's equal, but they hada reason to battle, due to their opposing factions. I personally love Metal Sonic. Shadow just gets in the way of both of their roles, sidelining them, and trying to be Sonic's full-time rival. And it's not working. I still think he needs to be dead for reasons explained above. But I do agree, his personailty needed to be deepened and much more weel defined. ... They messed up that game with the guns, I swear. |
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I'm Maelic, elsewhere known as Paper Doramu - Self-proclaimed artist and full-time nerd. If you're ever crediting me, PLEASE, label me as "Paper Doramu"!!! If you're just dying to know what it means, PM me... >.> This here is... Paper Doramu! My virtual self, I suppose. Yes, he's a freakin' drum. ^.^
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| Rad Red | Sep 8 2008, 05:23 PM Post #17 |
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Guardian of the Master Emerald
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Yes, I know he wasn't meant to be silver (or silver-ish, if that pleases you), but he stood out more from Super Sonic that way. Now he just looks like a clone. |
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The servers are the seven chaos. Chaos is power, power is enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the chaos. Only you can do this! Stop the Chaos Emeralds! Spoiler: click to toggle ^IT'S OVER WE WON!!!^ | |
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BlizShadow
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Sep 8 2008, 06:01 PM Post #18 |
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No. 1 Werehog Supporter!
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That'd be a more valid viewpoint had Sega not left it open. After all, they never actually showed his death nor was there a body, and logically debate raged on about whether he actually died or not. It was obvious there was plenty of room to resurrect him and people were happy about the prospect of his return in Heroes. But after ShtH was done, they just didn't like the execution and for good reason. But regardless, I still don't discount the emotional impact of SA2 because its writing is still well done. The release of future games, to me, do not infringe upon its quality in the same way that they will not infringe upon the quality of the Classic games (as if anything after 1994 can. XP). The composition of art is static, and as a result the whole of SA2's story is and always will be epic in its own right. To condense my point, why do you think plenty of fans say "I like Shadow in SA2 only"? You missed the point entirely. Despite the fact that his role was minimal, at least Knuckles actually appeared. Meanwhile, Shadow was left out entirely and has only been in three out of the tons of handheld games released since his debut. The Classic trio have been shoehorned into every single storyline since the beginning of their times. It was only ShtH and Sonic '06 in which Tails and Knuckles' roles were excessively minimal in comparison to Shadow's, and yet you're actually telling me they get no spotlight whatsoever? They get story and gameplay roles all of the time; many more than any character introduced past 1994 will ever be able to accrue. And that's not counting the tons more merchandising and Sega favoritism they receive over Shadow (Ex. Look at the official Sonic sites and tell me if Shadow's presence is oh-so overbearing). What you're basically saying is that because Knuckles and Tails didn't have starring roles a few times, Sega has tossed them out onto the street like dogs? Hyperbolic reaction much? =/ I'm not talking about character specific fanbases. Classic/modern extremists, serious shippers, and those Sonic Passion folk are arguably bigger pests to the Sonic community than the Shadow fanbase which has long since calmed itself down. That's with every character fanbase out there, not just Shadow's. The general temperament of Shadow's fandom is no different now than any of the other characters'. Why do you make this assumption under the guise that the two hedgehogs are the same person? They aren't. It's obvious that the ridiculously blessed Sonic has not experienced anything close to the horrors and injustice that Shadow has. So to say that he would react as he usually does under the exact same circumstances is quite a stretch and ultimately moot to your argument. But regardless, very little of Shadow's performance in ShtH was emo. Instead of being overly sentimental, inactive, whiny, and melodramatic like the stereotype indicates, Shadow simply had questions about himself and a serious problem with the Earth's safety overall and took aggressive action. Just because he did it in a way that contradicted the hokey, arguably gag-inducing brightness of modern Sonic games doesn't make him "emo." Just because Sonic and Knuckles have different personalities doesn't mean they still can't find common ground, which they finally have-- that being the fight against Eggman and a need to, yanno, keep their planet intact. That goes far beyond any reasons they can conjure up to fight, especially not something as petty as "Sonic stole the Master Emerald." As I said before, Sonic has long since proven his worth to Knuckles as an ally and he finally sees it. That's more logical than to keep them at each other's throats. I do agree that their little skirmishes are amusing and appropriate, but there's little need to keep their rivalry so intense anymore. Ironically enough, Shadow's relationship with Sonic is exactly the same-- While they have different personalities and mindsets, they maintain respect for each other and know that they might ultimately need the other in order to survive. Not really. Both Knuckles and Shadow got a clue and Metal Sonic is still evil. Sonic can have as many rivals as he wants. No character "pushes" another out of the way and ruins them simply because one naturally grows out of a role or another character introduced later partly fits the mold of a specific role. That's just silly and undermines the characters' real importance to the series as a whole. Shadow and Sonic had opposing factions when the intense moment of their rivalry was relevant. Why does Metal Sonic get a pass for this same reasoning? Because he was first? I think it's obvious I half agree. XP;; Guns were the least of that game's problems. |
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Contrary to popular belief, I'm NOT leaving forever and ever. I'm just making sure you know that college may shave off a little SB time. Oy vey.... Anyways, been gone on vacation? Got grounded from the computer? Then, you've probably missed a lot. Catch up on the latest Sonic-related news! Current headline: Black Knight Information Explosion Also, clicky for all of my fan-related stuff! I promise you it's actually awesome! Spoiler: click to toggle ~*Quote Of The Moment*~ "... Why would you want to do anything for fans?... Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it...." -- Ben &q | |
